The eighth floor

[Guest CancerForTheCure]

Like I said, the health problems you suffer from when you're a smoker are often irreversible so it won't help you if you have to pay for it. On the other hand, if you're going to continue smoking, why shouldn't you be forced to pay for it? In terms of anorexia, it's a bit different to obesity as it's often life-threatening whereas obesity is most likely to be a health hazard. Also, anorexia is more psychological than physical - most obese people simply don't care/don't believe they'll achieve anything although obviously that obviously depends on each person.

I do agree with you Jono that when they are genuinly trying and can't lose any weight they should indeed get free help, eg. when it is indeed genetic or when it's that illness-I-don't-remember-the-name-of. But when they actually can't be bothered to do anything about it?

I'm not trying to say that they all deserve that so they should pay - I'm just saying they should be given some motivation. There are obviously flaws in my argument as 1. It would be a very time-consuming process trying to establish the reasons for and the nature of everyone's obesity 2. Most of them will probably just not bother anyway. It would work in an ideal world though

[Jono]

Smokers argue that they pay for their health costs through the taxes on cigarettes. I suppose obese people spend more money on vattable foods (fizzy drinks, chocolate, cake etc) but I'm not sure that makes up for the cost to the NHS.

Yet they continue to smoke. So if the tax is intended to stop people getting fat it's unlikely to work. If it's just to make money for the NHS then it obviously will, but won't be popular.

[superchris0110]

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Smokers argue that they pay for their health costs through the taxes on cigarettes. I suppose obese people spend more money on vattable foods (fizzy drinks, chocolate, cake etc) but I'm not sure that makes up for the cost to the NHS.

Exactly, which is why the UK probably has one of the highest prices of cigarettes in Europe. Mainland Spain you can get a pack of 200 for about £7. In the UK that same pack will cost the smoker in excess of £50. I think morbidly obese people should make a very small contribution to their treatment, when the aren't doing anything actively to change their eating habits and cut their weight, and generally just cant be arsed should pay.Those who have tried everything, and still cant cut their weight, should rreceive the help they need from the NHS free of charge.

The NHS is already struggling with budget cuts/potential hospital closures through poor management, thousands of pounds spent on someone who has failed to keep control of their diets and does nothing to change their diets, is not affordable, there is no fair means of recovering that cost by taxing fast food to the sky.

This is especially important when the government decides to spend the equivalent of the NHS annual budget on a failed bail out plan for the banks for disgusting mismanagement.

[Jono]

But do fat people not already pay National Insurance? It's not as if everything is free for them already. Check out the Eastern and Coastal Kent Health Trust. They are doing the opposite and are paying fat people to lose weight. I reckon that could be a winning formula.

This is especially important when the government decides to spend the equivalent of the NHS annual budget on a failed bail out plan for the banks for disgusting mismanagement.

Well that's hardly the fat people's fault! The NHS are spending ridiculous amounts (sorry Timsk!) on new systems and silly ideas which are running into their millions.

I think morbidly obese people should make a very small contribution to their treatment, when the aren't doing anything actively to change their eating habits and cut their weight, and generally just cant be arsed should pay.Those who have tried everything, and still cant cut their weight, should rreceive the help they need from the NHS free of charge.

The NHS is already struggling with budget cuts/potential hospital closures through poor management, thousands of pounds spent on someone who has failed to keep control of their diets and does nothing to change their diets, is not affordable, there is no fair means of recovering that cost by taxing fast food to the sky.

But we're not just talking about people turning up and complaining of being fat are we? The way I see it the question asks us whether EVERY treatment on the NHS should be paid for - fat related or not. What happens if they need cancer treatment. Why should they be any different to anyone else just because they have a bit of flab on them? It's no more their fault than anyone else's.

Exactly, which is why the UK probably has one of the highest prices of cigarettes in Europe. Mainland Spain you can get a pack of 200 for about £7. In the UK that same pack will cost the smoker in excess of £50.

And you're telling me someone who smokes a few packets of cigarettes has suddenly paid enough tax? They'd have to have smoked a large quantity for most of their life to have paid the sort of tax that would help the NHS. Kids who started at 14 and suddenly have problems at 18 are hardly going to have paid enough, are they? Fat people pay tax too. They are taxed on food and no doubt they've had consumed more so they've paid more

[superchris0110]

Well that's hardly the fat people's fault! The NHS are spending ridiculous amounts (sorry Timsk!) on new systems and silly ideas which are running into their millions.

No, it isn't their fault. However, what I was implying that the obese people who can't be bothered to change their diets and instead, run straight to the NHS for a gastric band(or whatever they are called), body fat removal etc should make a contribution towards their treatment. On the other hand, if the problem is genetic and the patient has tried everything to cut their weight... the NHS should pay fully for their treatment. Why should someone who is going to continue eating 10 hamburgers a day etc, who will most likely be back in a year or 2 for the same treatment, recieve this treatment for free

But we're not just talking about people turning up and complaining of being fat are we? The way I see it the question asks us whether EVERY treatment on the NHS should be paid for - fat related or not. What happens if they need cancer treatment. Why should they be any different to anyone else just because they have a bit of flab on them? It's no more their fault than anyone else's.

I clicked straight onto this thread via the notices at the top which said "should fat people pay for the NHS"

I am not implying that patients shouldn't be treated because they are obese, I am simply implying that if they go to the NHS for treatment for their actual obesity, depending on whether they have tried everything possible or whether they are just going there because they cant be arsed to change their diet, should result in whether they should contribute or not. Perhaps I misunderstood the question and thought it was implying "should fat people be treated in terms of cutting their weight, flab". Regardless of whether the patient is obese, treatment for anything else should remain free.

And you're telling me someone who smokes a few packets of cigarettes has suddenly paid enough tax? They'd have to have smoked a large quantity for most of their life to have paid the sort of tax that would help the NHS. Kids who started at 14 and suddenly have problems at 18 are hardly going to have paid enough, are they? Fat people pay tax too. They are taxed on food and no doubt they've had consumed more so they've paid more

Nope, I don't think they have paid enough tax. However On an individual basis if you smoke 30 a day you have paid £40 in tax for one week, over a year £2080. Without doing the proper background research I can't say, for example,how much treatment for lung cancer costs per individual. They are paying that price for both their nicotine fix, but also in a way an expectation that the NHS will have to treat them for their dirty habbit... so are consiously/subconsiously contributing towards their treatment in the future.

[Jono]

I am not implying that patients shouldn't be treated because they are obese, I am simply implying that if they go to the NHS for treatment for their actual obesity, depending on whether they have tried everything possible or whether they are just going there because they cant be arsed to change their diet, should result in whether they should contribute or not. Perhaps I misunderstood the question and thought it was implying "should fat people be treated in terms of cutting their weight, flab". Regardless of whether the patient is obese, treatment for anything else should remain free.

Ah well this is somewhat different to my argument about health in general.

[superchris0110]

Ah well this is somewhat different to my argument about health in general.

Ahh okay, ignore my ramblings then

[Viv]

I I'm fed up of the amount of bloody smokers going on about coughs and going to the doctors and yet buying endless amounts of fags.

I have to agree with this one!! Plus, I've just never understood smokers. If you look into an ashtray, and see the contents, I mean, yuck, this is what they're putting into their bodies.

Also, check out the video blog from January 16th '09, where Chris Moyles spits out his tea when there is a mention of fat people paying medical treatment: about 3 mins. and 14 seconds in!!

www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/blogs/

[MissCorsham]

I hope university is worth it, its so expensive and its going to be a lot of work, but so fair the life experience I'm having is priceless! I wouldn't want to miss this for the world. I would hate to go back home now and take on a full time job. I have my own world here, and thats where most of my student loan is going, onto the rent for this room. I took Maths because I believe it will open a lot of doors for me. I sure hope it does.

[Jono]

I think university for me has been a good experience so far. You can end up getting caught up in a tide when all of your friends go to university and you don't (like last year) so it's wise to have some plans for when they go.

I got ill and totally depressed and was a bit of a hermit until September and my only saving grace was my girlfriend. Since September I've got back into a daily routine and saw new people even if I didn't exactly socialise with them. This semester I've gone back to see the people I'm familiar with and I'm trying hard to build friendships with them. By getting to know these people I also get to know their friends too, and this is all without going out at nights with them (as I travel in). So this week back has been a dead good experience.

I'm studying a mixed degree of politics, sociology and media. It's not exactly the career path I want to go down but it's interesting and I think a degree is useful if you want an exciting job. It's not necessarily required in some positions though but shows a well-educated background.

So I'd not say it's always worth it as I question why I'm paying £200 a month on buses into university (or those who spend the equivalent or more on accommodation) as well as keeping spending to a minimum due to my £3,145 fees and loans. But if you want something other than just education then it's the right place to go.

I didn't go in my first year because I had fears about cost and I was relying on word of mouth and my parents say so to tell them whether I could afford it. They couldn't take it all in and decided I probably wouldn't manage it. In my year out I managed to work it all out and forums were helpful for that. So I'd advise Aled to emphasis there are grants and stuff like that to ensure you're not stuck in financial hell because that's what put me off uni!

[MissCorsham]

My finances we're really tight before christmas, but that was because I was ill informed about student finance, I was advised that because I wasn't entitled to EMA I wouldn't get any busarys so there was no point going income assessed. This gave me the lowest loan amount, I was losing out on £1100 a year in loan, and £40 in bursary. I also get £40 a week from my dad. The loan only just covered my hall rent before I got it fixed, and now I'm doing a lot better with my money. Well... I was until I spent £40 on new clothes last night. I did need them though.

Im going though that kind of feeling at the moment Jono, the depressed feeling and not leaving my room. I've not left my room since Wednesday, well apart from my daily stroll to tesco to wander the aisle aimlessly. I've been put back on anti depressant, but its very badly timed as I have exams coming up, and when I started these before it gave me mild insomnia and a constant sick feeling for the first few weeks.

I'm just loosing it a bit. None of my uni friends go out much. The student radio is the main thing in my life at the moment, but I don't even see them much.

[Jono]

My finances we're really tight before christmas, but that was because I was ill informed about student finance, I was advised that because I wasn't entitled to EMA I wouldn't get any busarys so there was no point going income assessed. This gave me the lowest loan amount, I was losing out on £1100 a year in loan, and £40 in bursary. I also get £40 a week from my dad. The loan only just covered my hall rent before I got it fixed, and now I'm doing a lot better with my money. Well... I was until I spent £40 on new clothes last night. I did need them though.

I've gone about mine a weird way. As I get a full grant of £2835 a year (normally used for your day to day essentials that you don't repay) I am saving that with the UEA Bursary of £600 (awarded by the uni) which will pay for £3145 tuition fee loan (that you take out to pay the uni). As a result I am working for the rest of my money for buses etc during a few evenings. Accommodation isn't so bad as it's cheap as I live with family! So hopefully come February and May I'll be able to pay off my only loan and prevent the interest rising on it.

I think the interest aspect of the loans is the dispicable part of the money element. Charging people £3,145 to go to uni isn't great but then charging interest on those loans shows the government would rather students were in dire straits.

[MissCorsham]

All the money experts say not to rush to pay back your student loan as the interest is below inflation. Even if you dont need the student loans they say to take it all and stick it into savings because that was you make money on it. I get £1400 odd 3 times a year, and about the same amount goes straight back into my rent, the next payment will only be £700, so Ill be up for when I go home for the summer. That'll go into savings and hopefully I'll get a part time job.

I've gone into ostrich mode right now, I can't deal with the world I'm supposed to be right now. So I've spent the last 4 days doing nothing.

[Jono]

All the money experts say not to rush to pay back your student loan as the interest is below inflation. Even if you dont need the student loans they say to take it all and stick it into savings because that was you make money on it.

But you'd need to go through the bother of finding an account with higher interest than the student loans account. I think I'd rather pay it off than worry and have a few quid every few months.

[MissCorsham]

They've bought the interest down to 2.8% now, which is pretty low I think, I don't really know much about it all.

[Jono]

They've bought the interest down to 2.8% now, which is pretty low I think, I don't really know much about it all.

My bank account only offers 0.93% savings so it would be more bother to go and open an account elsewhere. 2.8% on a loan which adjusts to the interest rate is pretty poor considering the interest rate is much lower.

[popbitcher]

i only went to university for a few months and realised it wasn't for me. i couldn't see the cost overall being worth it when i was only going for the social aspect. i went into a few office jobs and now work caring for the elderly. i look at my friends from college and realise i'm lucky to have my own home, a job and at these troublesome times i don't have a loan piling up

so no i don't think university is always worth it. i got my gcses and my a levels. there will always be something better that you can put down on your cv but you have to weigh up the benefits and disadvantages. :

[Jono]

Did you get a shout out Nati regarding university?

I'm proud to see a lot of comments being brought up on the surgery tonight. I'm sure the people thought up them themselves but it shows our thread was on the right lines

Also looks like everyone has been given t-shirts tonight. A one-off for the cameras or will we see more of these?

[KingTutsWWH]

Did you get a shout out Nati regarding university?

Nope. When? I've literally just tuned in. I was going to say on this thread I feel that everyone should have an equal right to health care in the same way that they should have the same right to education; regardless of how they choose to live their lives. We are all born equal.

Re. University, I feel that for some it is a truly wonderful experience, but for others it is simply unnecessary. If you are a person who enjoys academia, by all means go for it. I absolutely adored studying English, so a 4 year MA course in Glasgow suited me right down to the ground. I would agree with what everyone has already mentioned on here about the acquisition of social skills too.

Anyhow, I became a teacher. However my brother wasn't an academic and becames a self taught plumber, electrician and builder. I have so much respect for his skills, and he earns a huge amount more than me!

Going to Uni really depends on the person in the end...

[Jono]

If you are a person who enjoys academia, by all means go for it.

That's a point I missed. I do love that sort of thing. I love note taking and being organised. Buying stationery and all that shiz! So doing an academic course over a vocational course wasn't such a silly idea.

I enjoyed listening to the debate. I'm impressed with the amount of celebrity assistance Aled has built up recently. All the drops and comments from guests that pop into Radio 1.

PS It's quite unfortunate Claire from Steps sounds like Beccy.

[Aled]

Before I do a Surgery I try and do as much research as possible about the topic / debate that's on that week - that includes reading forums like this one so your opinions are very interesting.

[Guest]

I think university is worth it (especially more so for young people) as a degree offers a potentially better life at least in terms of employment opportunities and social mobility. There are pressures and there can be financial stress if you don't have wealthy parents but that ought not to put anyone off. The short-term woes university can deliver are offset in the long-term with the benefits of a good job.

However for those who are not academic and do not have the same opportunity to go to university it should not automatically be considered the end. There are plenty of vocational careers available to school leavers that offer decent pay and job satisfaction and there are opportunities to re-learn GCSEs and A-levels and then to progress further although at a cost.

So yes, perhaps university is worth it as it can offer an enhanced life (partially throughout and then beyond) but a school leaver or someone who opts not to go to university with A-levels can still make a decent life for themselves and still have the opportunity to progress further to a better life (see Open University as a prominent example).